HomeMy WebLinkAbout1954 01-26 CC ADJ MIN154
National City, California, January 26, 1954
Adjourned meeting of January 19, 1954, of
was called to order by Mayor Sarn at 7:30
men present: Campbell, Carrigan, Moeser,
men absent: None.
the City Council
P.M. o'clock. Council-
Parchen, Sarn. Council -
ADMINISTRATIVE OFFICIALS present: Warwick, Bailey, Campbell,
Gautereaux.
DOROTHY JENSEN, 41 E. 2nd Street, was present, and stated this
request is her own, as a citizen of National City, not for any
organization, and definitely not the Council. Mrs. Jensen
addressed her question to Attorney Campbell, and stated she
heard that Mr. Carrigan had been served recall papers and Mr.
Carrigan has not served six months in his last term of office,
and asked if that was legal. ATTORNEY CAMPBELL stated it is
his opinion that he must have held that particular office for
six months before subject to recall. MRS. JENSEN asked how
Dr. Parchen would be affected. ATTORNEY CAMPBELL stated if
sufficient petitions were filed on both Mr. Carrigan and Dr.
Parchen, it is his interpretation that Mr. Carrigan would not
be subject to recall at this time, but Dr. Parchen would be
and it would be necessary to call the election for Dr. Parchen.
MAYOR SARN: "The main purpose of this adjourned meeting is to
determine the present status of the opening of the South Bay
Project, the opening of 10th Street, the culvert, the building
of the culvert at 12th and Highland, drainage east of Highland
and drainage west of Highland. The next is the intentions of
the City of National City in regard to these problems. This
is on tape recording and anybody wishing to speak on the matt::
come to the "mike", state their name, address, and take it from
there. Mr. Wilson, do you want to start the ball rolling?"
MR. WILSON:. "I am Mr. Guy C. Wilson, President of National
Center, Inc.. First let me say that my associates whom I
represent, and myself, we are very happy to have this occasion
to speak with the Board, and somewhat flattered with the
attention that the townspeople are giving to our project. Let
me say too, that our purpose tonight is not a particularly
belligerent one, and I don't want to have anyone feel that
we are here with any purpose in particular to find fault. We
had occasions in other instances in other areas where the
matters had to be contended with and not been quite so severe,
add we have had certain problems here that are no particular
fault of anyone special perhaps, but that requires some care-
ful attention and some very definite action. The immediate
problem now is that we are at the stage of the progress of
South Bay Plaza where there needs to be a definite clarification
of certain mattersand policies, some of which have been
previously discussed, and largely we thought agreed upon and
satisfied, but that now we are immediately up against a necessity
for doing some things and having some things done that require
a precise and positive stand and instances as this some formal
action that may take care of the situation, requires that they
be discussed with the Council and that the proper action be
taken so that we eam;go ahead. There are some of these matters
that are of no great significance or importance except that
they do require some formal action. There are some of these
things that are a matter of policy and need to be carefully
gone into. There is considerable background of discussion
already in the record, the purpose now being to clarify these
matters and to have clearly stated the position that we should
assume, the position that the City will assume and the
1/26
155
clarification of whose responsibility. Among the things that
are of no great consequence, except require formal action, is
one that has previously been discussed and we can pass that
over briefly. There is a sewer line running down through the
area which is to be improved. That, I think, has been a matter
of knowledge to the Council and to the Engineer's Office for
some time. On two accounts it seems advisable that the position
of that sewer line be changed and that the easement in which the
sewer main is now located be abandoned by the City and that
at the expense of the developers a new line be placed at a
slightly different position which would resolve this immediate
problem. I see no reason why, from a practical nor an engineer-
ing standpoint that there should be any problem in this
particular case. It is just the matter of necessary formal
action which would abandon the one position of the sewer and
accept an easement over the new position with the -provision
that the developers would bear the expense of making the change.
If you would prefer we might outline most of the things that
you feel are fair subjects for discussion. or if you prefer
otherwise can take them up one at a time and make whatever
comment or motion might seem in order as each particular point
is discussed."
MAYOR SARN:
Mr. Wilson,
the expense
MR. WILSON:
:'Z&YOR SARN:
this?"
"What is the feeling of the Council regarding this?
you say the moving of that sewer line will be at
of the developers?"
"That is right."
"Have you given the Engineer the new location of
MR. WILSON: "Yes."
CITY ENGINEER WARWICK: "I have the plans for that new sewer
location in my office and I looked them over previously and
Mr. Phelps made a few minor changes in it to suit me, and I
got back the final plans on it rather late this afternoon,
but the points in question between Mr. Phelps and myself are
purely technical details on various elevations, and as to
matter of location which has not been changed it seems ad-
visable to move it to such a point. It would be to our
advantage to have that sewer out from underneath the proposed
buildings that go in. I believe one of them is the Woolworth
Building in question, and one the Penney Building."
MR. WILSON: "That is right."
CITY ENGINEER WARWICK: "From a maintenance standpoint it would
be almostaimpossible to go into a sewer if we ever had to, it
is rather/far fetched idea that you might, but there is always
that possibility there and I would recommend that the Council
take serious consideration into actually allowing the Mayfair
Company to move the sewers out where we could get at them if
we ever needed to."
MAYOR SARN: ''What is the feeling of the other Councilmen on
this?"
COINCILMAN PARCHEN: "Does that take a contract, or just on the
tape, or what? Would it take a contract?"
ATTORNEY CAMPBELL: "Yes, it would. And I think this is a
discussion as to your feelings, it is on tape but the Engineer,
you would want all these .:things worked out so your office would
have a permanent record."
1/26
156
CITY ENGINEER WARWICK: "We will have permanent records I am
quite sure. As I said, I do have prints of it and we would
want, naturally, permanent records of it and that can be
arranged, I believe. If necessary we can have duplicate
tracings made of the ones that are on file in Mr. Phelps'
office."
MAYOR SARN: "Do any of the Council have anys:objections to the
moving of the sewer lines?"
COUNCILMAN MOESER: "I want to ask Mr. Warwick, does the change
of this sewer line - going to change the depths of the line,
will it be the same depth through?"
CITY ENGINEER WARWICK: "The last print I saw of that sewer it
was at approximately the same depth, it would naturally,
when it starts out at one given point it would have to take
on the same elevation and when you go back in you would, have to
meet the existing elevations of the sewer, I can't tell you
exactly what the elevations, relative elevations are, the last
ones, as I did not get them until my office closed up this
afternoon."
MAYOR SARN: "So if there is no objection from the Council we
will authorize the City Engineer and City Attorney to bring in
the necessary papers and forms at the next meeting so we can
get that sewer line properly located."
MR. WILSON: "Do I understand then that this action will be
formally taken so we can clear up this matter?"
MAYOR SARN: "I think so, if there are no objections."
MR. WILSON: "That will be done at the next meeting?"
MAYOR SARN: "Formally. At the next meeting there will be
formal action on it."
MR. WILSON:''"The next matter that is of particular and pressing
importance is the question of handling of the drain under
Highland Avenue. Just in order that the record is clear, and
everyone understands the situation to the extent that the
City has agreed and the State has concurred in the design,
and the practicability of the drain and its necessity, also
to the extent that between the City and the State it has been
agreed that that drain will be put in at the expense of the
Highway Dept. and the State. The City has cooperated in every
possible degree in getting that matter solved. As you know,
that area east of Highland Avenue has historically been subject
to floods to the extent that on occasions it has become a
lake. There have been three small drains under this road which
have been completely inadequate and a situation has arisen
where you have a vacant piece of ground right square in the
middle of town that has not been usable for anything other than
farm land until this problem can be solved. We had assurance
from the beginning that the City would correct this situation
as far as the street is concerned. Then by reason of a chain
of events, by which the City had no responsibility, a matter
came up which involved some legal question, and certainly
tonight there is no purpose to determine the legal status of
any of the people involved, and certainly no point in bringing
up any controversial issues particularly since those are to be
tried in court of law the 10th of next month. But there is
this one very pressing ard very practical problema like it
or not, the drain has to be taken care of. The water which
comes down in that draw has never been properly handled. The
1/26
157
situation has always been a very bad one and it has been a bad
one because of the act of the City or the Highway Dept., who-
ever put in Highland Avenue in such a way that it has con-
stituted a dam. I know there is no thought on the part of the
City to want to duck that responsibility, and there is no
though;; on our part to want to get out or fail to assume our
responsibility. The important and the immediate thing is that
one way or another, we have got to decide who does what and
how, so that we can get this thing actually done. Pending the
decision in court as to the equities and ri'ie rights of those
who contend that their interests are involved in the area east
of Highland Avenue; we have had assurance on the part of the
City, after considerable discussion and thought, that the City
would move to immediately bring a condemnation suit which would
cut the knot and make it possible to go ahead with the physical
work and then to leave it up to court of L'& to decide who gets
what, or what harm is done to whom. And so we got then to the
point where we did get things in motion to the extent that we
had an und.::rstanding that the City would go ahead with the
eoitemnation action and request an immediate 'raking and would
proceed to put in. the drain under Highland Ave. if certain
thinge •,verse done. Number one thing was t'ae :) .v .ng to the City
of an indmniJz-ing agreement under the terms of which any
expense to the City beyond the expense of opening the drain
under Highland Ave.; that is any award that might be given, or
any suit in damage, or otherwise, would e inaemni ied to the
City by an a r•_: men , from the developers. Cur Attorney, Mr.
Charles Foxwar:3., drew such an agreement which would cover that
point. It was given to the City about the lith day of December.
It came back early in January, sometime in January, with eome
revis.oi , 'gut in the revisions was one provision which bound
the developers to do whatever was required to improve the c'na.°.:e
age channel east of Highland Ave. in such a way that it would
be acceptable to the City. We don't in any way want to decrease
our responsibility in handling that drain east of Highland. Ave,
in a way that is not proper. On the other hand from a strictly
legal standpoint we do not want to give a blank check either.
We don't want to say that we will do whatever the City r;auests
us to do in connection with that drain area until we know
precisely what it is the City wants. And co, we have had at
our expense, all the engineering done, all tho data su:Tmitted,
all the drawing made, all the proposals that were given to
the Council with the thought that t'-).ey would then give us an
addenda to the a.gr:ement which we're prepared to sign, a clear
and definite statement as to exactly what wants to be done
with that drain, With that, and it Las been tentatively agreed
upon between our Engineer and the City Engineer, if we can get
that in writing so we can add it to the agreement, we are
prepared to execute the agreement to indemnify the City against
any loss or cos;, and execute the agreement and then would ask
that you take immediate action to bring your condemnation sutt
and request an immediate taking and proceed to get that drain
in before a Blood comet in and tears things fir sure and for
keeps."
MAYOR SARN: "Mr. Wilson, that meeting previously that we had
at the City Manager's Office, you say that you would return to
L. A. that evening and within 24 hours you would have that
contract back. I think it took yen or eleven days."
MR. WILSON: ":What isn't so."
MAYOR SA':N: "Or seven to ten days; I know it did. I know that.
It took seven to con day. ,peso::'e that contract came crown here.
When did you receive it (addressed to the ty Manager). We
received it January llth. All right, let's get down to brass
1/26
158
tacks here. That is a little more than 24 hours. You can't
prepare a contract, you said it takes 24 hours, it took over
a week to get it, to prepare the contract. Now we look it
over and the Attorney put in a few things to protect the City,
and you want us to jump right in without looking it over. You
won't issue a blank check, or either is the City going to
issue a blank check on it."
MR. WILSON: "Mr. Sarn, there has been no purpose or no thought
of having the City commit to anything. We have been ready, able
and eager to execute a document which would totally indemnify
the City. But we would like to know, in matter of fact we
must know."
MAYOR SARN: "That contract where you state the City will be
indemnified was only at the last meeting with you. All this
court issue was between you and the other property owner, and
was pending and holding that whole channel up. It has no
relation to the City holding it up."
MR4 WILSON: "As I say, I don't want, and that was my reason
for going into considerable background on the thing. There is
no effort at all, Mayor Sarn, to blame anybody. And there is
no pointing fingers and no accusations, and I hope I made my-
self clear in the beginning. There is no purpose in this
meeting other than to define some of the things that need to
be done and implement the formal action that needs to be taken
in order that the thing we all want to do can be accomplished."
MAYOR SARN: "I would like to clarify one thing. At the previous
meeting we had in the Manager's Office with you, I did not know
at that time until after the meeting, that you were speaking
before the Chamber of Commerce and made a statement to the fact
that the City Council has put obstacles in the way of the
development of the Plaza. I want this on tape recording so
there won't be any misunderstandings."
MR. WILSON: "Mr. Sarn, in the first place I have never spoken
with the Chamber of Commerce."
MAYOR SARN: "Have you with any members of it in a group?"
MR. WILSON: "I have spoken with a group of citizens at the
invitation of Mr. Brinkman. Not to any meeting of the Chamber
of Commerce. I don't know what impression you have. If the
shoe fits, there it is."
MAYOR SARN: "It is going to fit, and that is why I want to
make sure it fits, that the shoe goes on the right foot."
MR. WILSON: "Are you taking umbrage at anything I have said
at any meeting with one or more persons? There are people here
who have, speaking of a particular meeting, there are people
here who were present in that meeting. Mr. Moeser was present
in that meeting. If there is anything that I said there or
before or since that you wish to take exception to I would be
very glad to--."
MAYOR SARN: "I just want to bring it up to the point as to the
very short time the City has had Im getting things going here."
MR. WILSON: "Please let me say again, I don't want to rehash
a lot of incidents. I think that no particular good can come
from anyone's harrowing feelings. There is only one purpose to
be said, after all we expect to be here for a long, long time.
We expect to be identified with the community in many, many ways.
1/26
159
We don't want to be me.d at anybody. We don't want anybody to
be mad at us. There is no purpose in attempting to put fingers
on sore spots. The only purpose in this meeting is to attempt
to clarify and to outline in such a way that everyone under-
stands just what the problems are, and just what needs to be
done, and to implement the actions that everybody wants to get
done, but that never get done unless we do something about it."
ATTORNEY CAMPBELL: "Can I see if I can bring this up to the
present time?"
MR. WILSON: "By all means."
ATTORNEY CAMPBELL: "As I understand it, Mr. Wilson, as you
know we had these various discussions as to this particular
contract and Mr. Forward made a draft and we prepared the
other, and the Council has approved the execution, however,
we ran into one difficulty which you and I talked over some
week or ten days ago, and as I understand it, you;or your
Engineer was preparing definite specifications to eliminate
this blank check. We only want this particular thing, what-
ever meets with the engineering practice, the same as you.
As I understand it has just been put out today or yesterday,
so I think we have really reached that point where we are
nearly in accord, because the Council has agreed on there
things, it is just a matter of putting t•h'_s in, and I a.m. sure
that is the answer to that problem."
MR. WILSON: "Yes, and there is no point in getting excited
about it, and I am sure, Mr. Campbell, that the intent and the
purpose of the Council and of the City has been, in every
respect, to be cooperative and helpful, but because of the
nature of the situation in which for a long time there was no
adequate professional help in the Engineering Dept. and a lot
of other things that have come in, it becomes necessary now to
clearly determine what's specifically needed to be done to get
these things accomplished and to take whatever formal action
is necessary to bring those things about. And as you say, as
far as this particular matter is concerned it would appear now
that it can be prepared so that it can be formally acted on at
the next meeting."
COUNCILMAN MOESER: "Might I ask Mr. Wilson. There is one thing
I want to make clear for.the record, that I attended the meeting
at which some of the Chamber members were present, and also the
meeting in the Manager's Office, at which time the uncertainty
of your position in regard to responsibility, I believe I was
the one that requested that you prepare an agenda of the different
items that were requested by you so that the City Manager, City
Engineer and City Attorney might discuss this. You were to
have those in in 24 hours. Of course, there has been a delay,
and I don't know if you have given any City officials a chance
or opportunity to go into these things, however, certainly my
impression was there were too many points involved that were
not a matter of record, that they were just oral and this meet-
ing was called that we might definitely have them as a matter
of record."
MR. WILSON "That is right. Thank you, Mr. Moeser, I appreciate
it "
MAYOR SARN: "Does any of the other Councilmen have anything to
say on the drainage? The Engineer has the plans which he
received at 5:00 o'clock this afternoon and said he would look
them over and have to have a recommendation by next Council
meeting."
1/26
160
ATTORNEY CAMPBELL: "And that will put us in this position. We
will probably have to have a supplemental resolution approving
the agreement, as modified, but that can be done by next
Tuesday's meeting."
MR. WILSON: "I will be very happy to be here at that time and
will do anything that would seem to be called for in order to
get it done, and we appreciate your cooperation. I am sure
that betweem Mr,Warwick and Mr. Phelps that they can arrange
for the plans and specifications that will be quite satisfactory,
and as has been indicated before, we are prepared to give to
the City the easements required to take care of all of the
drainage across the property in the development and to improve
it in such a way that it will be satisfactory to the City,
within reasonable limits, and to do it all at our expense.
Now, there is another matter in connection with this drainage
that is not an immediately urgent matter, and for that reason
I would like to hold it over for a few minutes and get to
the next thing that requires some immediate conclusions. As
you know, it is proposed that there be an opening of loth St.,
and in line with previous discussions and understandings, we
have, at our expense, had engineering drawings made of the
extension of loth as it would go easterly and in due course,
then to the south and would come into Palm Ave. just south of
what would be an easterly extension of 12th St. Back to as
far as "N" Ave. that street would be either on our property or
on property, owners of which we have working arrangements which
would make it possible for us to give to the City the 80 foot
right of way from Highland through to "N" Ave., and on "L"
Ave. to a point approximately where 9th Street would come
through, and on "M" Ave. to a point between where 9th and loth
would come through. Now on previous discussions with the City
there have been a number of problems discussed in connection
with this matter and some understandings arrived at. Number
one, it is required, in order that loth St. be opened, that
there be a bottleneck eliminated immediately at Highland Ave.
where there is a piece of property with a number of small court
buildings on it. An arrangement was made with the owner of
that property, under the terms of which that piece could be
acquired on consideration that, number one, the owner of the
property would be given a piece of property of similar size,
located on the east side of "E" Ave. just south of loth St.,
right behind the Christian Science Church, and he be given
that piece of property in such a way that the streets improve-
ments would be south of it, that the sewer line would be brought
up to it, and that it would be graded in such a way that he
could then move his buildings from the Highland Ave. location
to the "E" Ave. location, and that the cost of that move, which
was determined to be $21,368.00, as I remember it, would be
given him. At one time we proposed to the City that we would
give the City the right of way 80 feet wide of 10th Street east
to "N" Ave. and asked that the City acquire, or do whatever was
necessary, in order to take that bottleneck out, and it was
explained at the time that there were reasons why the City could
not properly put up the money to pay the $21,000.00 necessary
to move those buildings, but that it would seem more reasonable
and more acceptable from the standpoint of expediency and of
legality that we proceed then to acquire the property necessary
to satisfy Mr. Stowe, and to pay the $21,368.00 and to give the
right of way, and to improve the street at our expense as far
east as "N" Ave., and that in consideration for that the City
then would do three things: Number one: extend the extension
of loth Street on to intercept Palm Ave., then to do what was
necessary on "E" Ave. to make the site intended for Mr. Stowe's
location to be acceptable to him, and then to work out a means
to connecting extensions of "L'' Ave. and of "M" or "N" Ave. to
1/26
161
intercept 8th Street. Now, there have been a number of dis-
cussions of this matter informally. To this point there has
been nothing of such precise and definite statement as to make
it clear exactly where we stand, and it is quite important at
this point that matter be clarified and that we know exactly
what we are supposed to do, and what the City proposes to do,
and where we go from here."
MAYOR SARN: "Mr. Wilson, the only meeting I remember where the
10th Street - some members of the Council had gone along with
the idea of your developers opening loth from Highland to "N"
and then the City would probably be able to open loth through
to Palm legally, under probably gas tax money or something
like that. We cannot spend money on private land for a private
individual. Now, you say you had previous discussions regard-
ing paving "E" Avenue and bringing it up to grade and running
a sewer line, is that with one man?"
MR. WILSON: "Yes."
MAYOR SARN: "Who was that?"
MR. WILSON: "Mr. Rhodes."
MAYOR SARN: "Mr. Rhodes?"
MR. WILSON: "That is right."
MAYOR SARN: "It was a verbal agreement with Mr. Rhodes that
the City would do that?"
MR. WILSON: "That's right."
MAYOR SARN: "As far as I am concerned Mr.. Rhodes is not going
to bind me on anything like that, because I can't see the City
legally spending money on a private piece of land, taxpayers'
money."
MR. WILSON: "You are misconstruing the situation to this extent.
In order for "E" Avenue to make sense it must be widened to
50 feet of width. We are prepared to acquire and give to the
City a ten foot strip which would make a 50 foot "E" Ave. and
to dedicate the 10 feet to the City to add to the present 40
feet, so we are not talking about private property at all. Then
under the terms of an easement right that was given to take the
dmih chant across a portilith of property west of Highland Ave.
the City has already agreed, in writing, to make a crossing of
the drain. It would seem to be practical that that drain
crossing be made at "E" Avenue rather than at some place else
where it can do no good. It would seem then, that, as far as
we are concerned we would be the means of making it possible
to open up "E" Ave. from 10th St. clear down to 15th, 14th, or
wherever it is, to give to the City a 10 foot strip, there
would be responsibility of the City other than to accep{. The
10 foot strip and to designate the grade and do what grading
needed to be done, not on private property, but on the extension
of "E" Ave. from loth St. south 300 feet."
MAYOR SARN: "You want the City to grade off that site?"
MR. WILSON: "No, no, we agree to do that."
MAYOR SARN: "You will do that now?"
MR. WILSON: "The grading has to be done. There has never been
any thought of the City doing it."
1/26
162
MAYOR SARN: "Previously you said you wanted us to do it."
MR. WILSON: "I am sorry you got that impression, Mayor, that
was not the idea. We understand the situation as far as the
City is concerned. You can't do anything on private property,
we don't ask you to. We propose to give a 10 foot strip from
loth Ave. south to make a 50 foot street available to the City.
We have already agreed in terms of an easement to make the
crossing of the drain. We just as well put it there, establish-
ing grades on "E" Ave., improve it back 300 feet, that is all
we ask."
MAYOR SARN: "Getting on with that dry crossing. That agreement
was with the, wasn't it with the original owner of the land, a
Jap farmer, so that he could cross from one end of the farm to
the other. He had at that time a three-quarter ton pickup
truck. I believe the dry crossing was to be built to support,
or for a three-quarter ton truck to cross there. If the City
puts a dry crossing at "E" Ave. and they open "E" Ave. up it
is going to be more than a three-quarter ton truck going
across there."
MR. WILSON: "That is true, there is no question about it."
MAYOR SARN: "Well then, suppose it collapses? Something goes
over there that is heavy and then collapses, where will the
City stand?"
MR. WILSON: "At this point there is no obligation on the part
of the City to open up E Ave. All we ask is that you accept
a deed of 10 feet and that you improve "E" Ave. to a point 300
feet south of 10th St. Now, from there on we don't care if
you never put in the crossing of the drain,for practical purposes
it is not a matter that is relevant to this discussion. It would
seem to be unwise and certainly unnecessary and uneconomical
to put the crossing of the drain at any point east of "E" Ave.
since now it serves no purpose because the reason for the
Japanese man demanding it does not any longer exist. The time
in which the City would undertake to cross the drain, who knows
when that is going to be. At this time there is no point other
than that we would ask the City to accept the 10 foot strip,
the sewer line is in the street to a point within, I don;t know
how many feet, but it isn't very far to the south end of that
strip which would be within 300 feet south of loth St."
ATTORNEY CAMPBELL: "Mr. Wilson, insofar as the 10 foot strip is
concerned, it is your offer that you would dedicate the 10 foot
strip and the consideration is that the City would improve "E"
Street to a point 300 feet south of loth St. Now, I think
perhaps the point that might not be clear would be what type of
improvement, or has that been thoroughly discussed?"
MR. WILSON: "No, there has been no discussion of that, Mr.
Campbell. I think there are certain specifications to which
the City customarily conforms, I don't know what they are, and
it isn't too,relevant, what is ever reasonable and.fair. Our
agreement with Mr. Stowe is that the street will be so that it
can be used. We have asked the City to that extent to cooperate
in consideration for our spending $21,000.00 to give Mr. Stowe
the cost of moving his buildings to the new location, and con-
sideration for our going ahead with the balance of the job east
of Highland Ave. But certainly there is no thought of anybody
asking the City to do any work on private property at all."
MAYOR SARN: "Do any of the other Council have anything to say
on that?"
1/26
163
COUNCILMAN CARRIGAN: "I would like to ask one question, Mr.
Mayor, to clarify one item in my mind. Was there some re-
quest on your part that the City connect the sewers to the
property at which Mr. Stowe will be moved at City expense, or
is that included in the $21,000.00?"
MR. WILSON: "No. We must bring the sewer to the site."
COUNCILMAN CARRIGAN: "Now when you say "we", who do you
mean be "we"?"
MR. WILSON: "In order that we can go ahead with the opening of
the bottleneck and the location for the new site of the build-
ings is acceptable, it must be supplied with sewer service. In
previous discussion- it has been understood that the City would
bring an extension of the sewer, which is now down "E" Ave.,
I don't know exactly how far, but it was determined it was
easier to go down "E" Ave. a little ways than it was to come
back up to loth Street, and that the extension of that sewer
line would be made at City expense."
COUNCILMAN CARRIGAN: "Who would pay for the connections to the
property itself?"
MR. WILSON: "Mr. Stowe. There was no thought of there being a
connection being made from the street into the private property."
COUNCILMAN CARRIGAN: "Well now the sewer that will serve his
property, is it the same sewer that yoli are speaking of when
you ask that the sewer line under your property be moved?" 1
MR. WILSON: "No."
COUNCILMAN CARRIGAN: "It is an entirely different sewer?" What
was the approximate estimated cost of putting in the extension
of that sewer?"
MR. WILSON: "Frankly, I don't know. We never got down to--."
COUNCILMAN CARRIGAN: "How long will it be'? How long a run?"
MR. WILSON: "At the time, maybe I can answer it better this
way. There is a sewer now in loth Street which is 125 feet
north of the north line of the property which will go to Mr.
Stowe. It was determined that rather than go up to loth St.
it would be easier to go south on ''E" Avenue and connect with
the line there that comes in considerable distance north of
the school down there on, is it "D" Ave.? It was determined
that the location of the main was such that it would be more
economical to connect in that direction other than in the other
direction."
COUNCILMAN CARRIGAN: "At the meeting that I sat in on with you
and the rest of the Council and the other get:.eman here in
the audience, Mr. Reid, is it? At that time 6he $21,000.00
figure was brought up and to my knowledge the Council favored.
the fact of the Mayfair Market moving Mr. Stowe and improving
loth Ave. and they did offer a tentative agreement that if the
Mayfair Co. assumed that responsibility then that the City would
attempt to carry on the street from the end of your property to
Palm Ave. But never, to my knowledge, did the City ever assume
any responsibility for anything other than that I just stated."
MR. WILSON: "This matter, the ,whole thing involved in this
particular bottleneck has been the subject of a number of
1/26
164
discussions somewhat allusively held under circumstances that
it is quite easgto understand. There is no clear definition
of exactly what has been agreed to and that is precisely the
reason for our meeting tonight. All of these matters should
be out and discussed and understood so that we can have a clear
definition of what is to be done, and by whom."
MAYOR SARN: "Well, Mr. Wilson, the discussion you are talking
about was held with Mr. Rhodes, not with the Council. Any
discussion we had with you was more or less an informal meet-
ing in the Manager's Office, that I know of, and any that I ever
attended with you. Anything you made with Mr. Rhodes was be-
tween you and Mr. Rhodes."
MR. WILSON: "I understand, and I am not of a mind to take sides,
I know that Mr. Rhodes, for one reason or another is, well
again, may I just say, I would prefer°, if you don't mind, that
we forget as far as possible any background that it not
particularly re3etrant but yet fits into this particular sit-
uation, and that without attempting to judge people's motives,
or actions, or what they have said in the past, its it reason-
able and fair that we request that the City accept the 10 foot
strip to open "E" Ave. and do the things that are required in
order that we might go ahead with the program of opening
10th Street? If it is, then we have some definite understanding
and agreement that will be, something that we can count on and
go ahead with. Where do we stand?"
COUNCILMAN CARRIGAN: "Mr. Mayor, can I horn in here just a
minute? Mr. Wilson is asking a definite question. I think at
the time the Council met with Mr. Wilson and Mr. Reid in the
Manager's Office, the Council, I think, gave rather a little
bit more than tentative approval to the fact that they would
offer every cooperation in the world towards getting 10th St.
opened, but the thing that isn't clear in my mind, if the May-
fair Market will move Mr. Stowe's property to another location,
we have no quarrel with that, at least I have not; when it
comes to sewer connections and other foundations, if you wish to
do that for Mr. Stowe, that of course to me would seem to be
entirely your business. The Council gave a little bit more than
a tentative agreement to the fact that if you opened loth St.
east to the proper width from 8th to the end of your property,
then we would exert every pressure to get the street opened
and properly graded from the end of your property to Palm Ave.
Have I stated that correctly so far?"
MR. WILSON: "Yes."
COUNCILMAN CARRIGAN: "Now, at no time during those discussions,
to my knowledge, was the matter of the 300 foot on "E" St.
mentioned. Why is it so important to the Mayfair Market that
that 300 foot strip be opened?"
MR. WILSON: "Mr. Carrigan, we don't care about that 300 foot
except that it's the means by which 10th St. can be opened. If
the City wants to say flatly, now does say, that the City won't
do a thing about opening "E" Ave. we will probably find some
other way to do it. Again, we have no purpose to attempt to duck
any responsibility, nor to ask for anything that would seem to
be at all out of line, we don't ask for anybody to do anything
on any private property, it isn't a question of making any
connection from private property on to public property. It
would seem reasonable and fair that the City should do a little
something to try to get this thing finished up and in this
particular instance the matter of breaking the bottleneck at
Mr. Stowe's property requires that certain work be done in the
1/26
165
street. Now, one of them is to bring the sewer line in the
street, not on the private property and not connect to the
private property, but to bring the sewer line to a point where
it can be connected on and to grade "E" Ave. and to surface
it back far enough so that the man can get on to bhe property.
If that is an unreasonable request then say so. Now, the
other thing is, as you indicated, Mr. Carrigan, and I want to
draw attention to the fact that you have in referring to the
City's responsibility to take the extension of loth St. on to
Palm Ave. that you have been very guarded in your statement
now as to just what the City will do. That is precisely the
reason for this meeting, to get to the point now where certain
assurances have to be made which make it necessary that we have
some clear cut statement as to what the City can and will do,
and when. It isn't just a question of wishing, or wanting, or
being cooperative in attitude and spirit, it is to the time
now when we have to know what is going to be done. And since
the extension of 10th St. from Highland Ave. east to the end
of our property it is going to involve the expense of something
in the neighborhood of $125,000.00 besides the acquisition of
the site, beside the donating to the City of the right of way.
It would seem as though we ought to be able to count on some-
thing more than an attitude of interest and cooperation and be
able to get it down in terms of which, so that it will make some
sense to it."
COUNCILMAN MOESER: "Mr. Mayor, at this point I would like to
raise for information, Mr. Wilson, would it be possible, or
would it be more economical this highway, or through street,
to move this street you contemplate, to put if further south?
You must understand too, that while you feel that you are
spending a large amount of money, the City is to make the
connection, as I understand through the Engineer's Office,
from a point on 10th St. to connect to Palm Ave.;there is going
to be considerable outlay of money on the City's part. Wouldn't
that possibly be worthy of consideration if this street were
moved to a point further south, it might prove more economical
for both the City and the Mayfair Market?"
MR. WILSON: "Well, the first answer is that it would be not only
impractical, but it would be almost impossible because of a lot
of commitments that have already been made. The other answer
is, by our taking the thing east and then south again, rather
than due east at right angles to Highland Ave. we are in effect
taking two sides of a tri-angle and are therefore giving more
right of way and more streets and more paving than we would if
you were to take it due east from Highland Ave. and not turn it
south to a point where it gets almost down to 12th St. The
distance from Highland Ave. is ---, and to the point where this
would get off the property Mr. Stowe is on is something in the
neighborhood of 1500 feet. The distance to take the street
from there to Palm Ave. is 600 feet."
COUNCILMAN CARRIGAN: "Well, I will stick my chin out, Mr. Wilson,
and tell you, reiterate what I have said before, that if the
Mayfair Company would move the buildings on loth Street, which
would be definitely to Mayfair's benefit and to no one else, then
the City would carry on the opening from the end of your property
to Palm Ave., based on the theory that it would be of some value
to the people living in that area, as an arterial highway, and
there would be some justification for the expenditure of money
by the Cit-for that particular project. I would still go on
that basis, as far as the sewer itself is concerned, if it
meets with the Engineer's -.approval, and I am speaking for myself
again, I would have no objections whatever to having it moved.
Now this matter of opening "N" Ave. the 300 feet, of course,
1/26
166
whether the Mayfair does it or whether the City of National
City does it would be contingent entirely upon the Engineer's
approval and the cost, and if possible something like that; an
equitable agreement could be worked out later on by the City,
but since you are asking for a positive statement tonight, that
would be a positive statement on my part, that I would be per-
fectly willing and happy to work toward the end of opening loth
St. with the understanding that Mayfair would assume the re-
sponsibility of moving Stowe and reconnecting him to wherever
you move him to, and not involve the City, and the City work
toward the end of carrying the road clear over to Palm Ave. I
think it high time that the rest:of the Council signify their
opinions on the matter, that is just one person's opinion."
MAYOR SARN: "I don't think any of the Council are objecting
to the opening of 10th St. I think the main stop gap is the
development of "E" Ave. for a distance of 300 feet and running
a sewer line up there, and as to the cost of it, our opening
loth from the end of their property to Palm Ave. plus the
developing of "E" Ave. would run over $21.000.00 which is their
bargain with Stowe. Ours would run just as much opening loth
and buying right of ways and property to open up to Palm Ave.
plus developing of "E" Ave."
MR. WILSON: "Mr. Sarn, have you forgotten that it isn't just
the $21,000.00 to move Stowe, it's the matter of 80 feet of
width of a brand new street, completely improved for a distance
of 1500 feet, and that isn't $21,000.00, that is $125,000.00."
ATTORNEY CAMPBELL: "Can I see if I can summarize some of this.
It would seem that the Council's main problem would be, first
whether they believe that loth St. would be a good arterial
street to carry the traffic up there, not necessarily going to
Mayfair, but continuing east. If they believe that would be
a proper street then they should attempt to use gas tax money
to run from your east property line to Palm Ave. and if gas
tax money can be used for that then it will serve an arterial
purpose. As consideration for using gas tax money and expend-
ing that sum to run from your east line to Palm it must be
offset with the value of the $0 foot street from Highland to
your east property, plus the paving, because if they decide it
was an arterial street and they wanted toipen it up entirely
they were to have the entire cost if it is an arterial street.
I think their main concern should be whether that portion
dedicated by you and improved by you is a proper consideration
for the other purpose, assuming first they determine they need
an arterial street, and I don't think that the cost borne by
you has any relevant value, whether it be $20,000.00 or $25,000.00,
they shouldn't consider - so that would probably be their deter-
mining factor or factors there. The other thing would be whether
or not,if they wanted to add more consideration by opening up
"E" Ave. for the 10 foot dedication. I think probably you have
two distinct problems."
MR. WILSON: "I think that is true. It is just a matter of
coincidence that they interlock."
ATTORNEY CAMPBELL: "And it would seem, as Mr. Carrigan said,
and there was some question, I believe, in your mind, that the
improvement of 10th St. at the moment would improve your
property, although unless it were extended to Palm it would
probably serve your property to a greater advantage than anyone
else, so if gas tax money could be used, and it was determined
that it was feasible then they would have to determine that
fact. Isn't that what each of you had -- I don't know if all
of you were there at the different times when we talked, but I
1/26
167
was at one or two of those meetings, and I think that was the
general opinion. You then have to determine whether you want
to determine tonight whether or not that is, or whether you
need an engineering report on it also."
MAYOR SARN: "Do you feel, Mr. Warwick, that you would like to
look that street over and get the approximate cost of the
sewer line and the grading of "E" Avenue?"
CITY ENGINEER WARWICK: "Yes, Mr. Sarn, I would."
MAYOR SARN: "Could you get that by next week?"
COUNCILMAN CARRIGAN: "Apparently, Mr. Mayor, the matter of "E"
Avenue, as I understand it, isn't the all important item. It
is the matter of 10th Street and what the City will do on to-
wards Palm. The matter of "E" St., is my understanding from
what Mr. Wilson has said is something that can be done in the
future, there is no immediate need for it."
MR. WILSON: "It needs to be done as that is the point at which
they 4nterlock, Mr. Carrigan. You see you can't open up loth
Street until we move Stowe, and we can't move Stowe until we
can get that site acceptably prepared and we can't do that
until we get this other thing done. Now, in one sense they
are two separate considerations, and in another sense they come
together. The point at which they are separate is that the "E"
Ave. residents offer 10 foot strip from a point 125 feet south
of 10th St. down for a distance of 990 less 125 feet, eight
hundred and some odd feet, a 10 foot strip so that "E" Ave.
could be widened to 50 feet and be made an acceptable street.
They offer :. that 10 foot strip in consideration, if you
will, for improvement of "E°' Ave. for 300 feet, and the bringing
of a sewer line there so that it can be connected into. In the
other end we propose the improvement of 10th St. to "N" Ave.
including the $21,000.00 cost of moving Stowe'{s buildings in
consideration for your taking loth Ave. from our east line to
Palm."
COUNCILMAN MOESER: "Mr. Wilson, there is another matter comes
up in regards to this area, we will say from "N" to Palm Ave.,
from 10th to 12th, it would seem to me, regardless of the
picture, that is the part that is probably going to cost the
City considerable money. You have the drainage, the flood
control problem there and Mr. Warwick, have you had any chance
to estimate what the cost of that might be? From "N" to "P"
and from loth to 12th?"
CITY ENGINEER WARWICK: "Would you repeat that for me Mr.
Moeser?" '
COUNCILMAN MOESER: "If the City would undertake to open a road
from 10th to 12th St., from "N" to Palm Ave. within that area,
would we run tato considerable flood control and drainage
problems?"
CITY ENGINEER WARWICK: "Yes sir, we would. If I have in mind
exactly what you are talking about, we are getting connected
with that main floodway that comes around the south side of
Mayfair property. Yes sir, you would run into some rather
expensive structures similar to the one that you are putting
under Highland, and the figure on that is rather high."
MR. WILSON: "I think that fair comparison can be made on this
basis: We propose at our expense to take the drain channel
from Highland Ave. east a distance of about 900, almost a
1/26
168
thousand feet and then north and east a distance of another
900 feet. We will take that channel about 1800 feet and do
it at our expense. Your City would handle the channel as it
goes under the extension of loth St. 80 feet wide. At the
same time, and while we are thinking about the propriety of
calling this the project that is suitable for consideration
under gas tax use, we have also discussed another matter.
And while it is not an immediately pressing matter, and for
that reason I have skipped over it, I guess I had better bring
it up now. As you know, there is now a channel coming down
8th St. which is completely inadequate to handle drainage
that comes out of that canyon up there, and that periodically
houses from "M" Ave. east to Palm are subject to very extreme
flood hazard. Every time the damage occurs there is a re-
current liability on the City because of the very inadequate
manner in which that drainage water is handled. It would be
very difficult and very expensive to condemn right of way
and build a suitable drain channel to bring that flood water
down out of that canyon and along 8th Ave. and back on to
7th and around and then down under "M". On the other hand
there is a parallel channel south which is almost entirely
unpopulated, it is farm area, and there is a point back there
about a mile, mile and half, on the property that belongs to
Mr. Charles Kerch where by digging the channel however wide
is necessary, and not more than a couple of hundred feet long,
they could take from that north drainage area all the water
that now is a very extreme flood hazard as it gets down to
8th and Palm. That can be taken over into the south channel
at very little expense, in matter of fact in discussion with
Mr. Kerch he has volunteered to donate the right of way necess-
ary to take that flood water out of there which is creating
all that danger and hazard on 8th St. and bring it down in the
south channel, in which case then all of that farm land would
then be so that it could be used, and the handling of that
water as it came down into that southerly area could be done
in such a way that it provided a good highway east of Palm Ave.
in combination with the drainage structure. Maybe you could
put up high curbs, certainly it would not be much of a feat to
combine a street and a flood channel when one stroke would
eliminate all the hazard and contingent responsibility of the
City in that 8th St. Area, and at the same time give you a
combination highway and drain that would go up this other un-
populated area and open it up so that could immediately become
valuable land and could be improved for residences and other-
wise, and made a very material advantage to the City. So that
in condideration of the propriety of using gas tax funds to
take loth Ave. or its extension on up to Palm, there should
also be considered, not as an immediate responsibility, but
as a program that should be developed in the future, this
matter which could eliminate all your flood danger on 8th St.
and at the same time open up something in the neighborhood of
60 to 100 acres of land, so that it could be made usable."
COUNCILMAN CARRIGAN: "After that particular item there, Mr.
Mayor, what Mr. Wilson suggests has been discussed many times
with the Highway Dept. And the Highway Dept. in each and every
case, inasmuch as it would be necessary for the City to use
gas tax funds, has refused to consider it, due to the fact
that a drainage channel would be in connection with it and
they will not allow highway funds to be spent for that sort
of a project, and I think you know, and many people do, and
the rest of the Council, that the City itself as far as tax
monies are concerned there is not derived enough to handle a
project of that kind with City taxes, it would have to come
from gas tax funds, which to my knowledge on at least two
occasions has been very definitely turned down."
1/26
169
MR. WILSON: "Well, perhaps a more sensible alternative would
be then, after all if you are going to come down with a channel
down 8th St., you are going to have to condemn parcel after
parcel, after parcel, many of which have been improved and the
correction of your drain problem on 8th St. would be a very
expensive and a very difficult thing to accomplish. 0n the
other hand you can correct the drain situation by this other
means at relatively minor cost and then without attempting
to combine it with the street proceed :then on the basis that
it would be acceptable to the Highway Dept. and put in a
street independent of the drain. But even for the drain itself
your cost, both of construction and acquisition of right of
way in the south draw there would be just a fraction of what it
would be if you were to correct your flood problem on 8th St.
And that when it comes time to extend the extension of loth
St. east through that then proceed with it on the basis of a
design that would not be objected to by the Highway Dept."
COUNCILMAN CARRIGAN: "We got a long way east of the Mayfair
Market in that discussion."
MR. WILSON: "The matter comes up only when painting out the
fact when we talk about the extension of the new street from
the east end of our property to Palm Ave. we are not taking
it into the dead end of a box canyon, we are setting it at a
point where it then becomes, not only practical, but advisable,
to extend the thing on further on the basis that gives very
great value to the creation of a new street up to Palm."
COUNCILMAN CARRIGAN: "Well, Mr. Mayor, this brings one other
thought to mind. We all know and want Mayfair Market in
National City, but the thing that has been running around in
my mind in this matter of 300 foot on "E" Ave., I imagine
there are people in the audience, or at least there have been
in the past, who offer many streets to the City of National
City for dedication if the City would improve these streets
and put in sewers, and once a precedent such as this were
established, I don''t reasonably see how the Council could say
"no" to anyone else who put in a subdivision or lived in a
more or less unpopulated section of the City, to come in and
say "well, here, we will give you 50 feet of right of way and
all you have to do is install the streets and put in the sewers"."
MR. WILSON: "Is it fair to ask this question? Has the same
point been raised in an instance where you were offered 900
feet for the improvement of 300? It may not be a fair question,
and of course, I personally am concerned. The outline of the
procedure as I have given it seems to be fair and reasonable.
But again, the principal reason for our meeting together here
tonight is to come to some conclusions that we are certain
about. It is one thing to have to fight problems and to
solve them and another one to be punching feather bags, and we
would like to be able to know where we stand."
COUNCILMAN MOESER: "Well,. Mr. Wilson, as Mr. Carrigan stated,
I am sure that the Council is certainly willing to go along as
far as possible, and I am sure that everybody in the community
will welcome such an enterprise such as you are putting in,
but as stated we are spending City money, and we must account
for this money to the people as a whole, and that we are here
for the purpose of correcting some of the conditions at the
same time so that the citizens can know just how this money
is going to be expended, if it is expended."
MR. WILSON: "That is right."
1/26
170
NORMAN STOWE, 707 E. 7th Street: "Mr. Carrigan has been thinking,'
I think, and Mr. Moeser too, that they are improving "E" Ave.
specifically as a sewer line for the Mayfair. If you will
look over the entire City a sewer line was put'in in all streets
where a need at that time was felt. "E" Ave. was a street, it
was not improved up as far as loth because there were no build-
ings there. However, they did go up between "D" and "E" in
an alley, ran all the way up there, for what reason. But that
is besides the point. When we connect to a sewer we pay for
that throughout the City. The City spent out money as well
as yours in putting in a trunk line in every street. You said
thatiother people would like to have sewers in their street.
Other people have all the streets, the sewers are in those
streets and when their cess pools plug they connect and help
for that outlay of cash the City spent of our money. Now
there is only a short point on the map there that runs from
the Catholic Church to loth St. that doesn't have sewers. Of
course, if they feel that it shouldn't have any there they
could still tie on to the one they ran up the alley between "D"
and "E", and I think the Councilmen haven't looked at the map.
I did, and I don't think the Council does look at anything
until it comes up. You will probably look at it after this
meeting. But the expense to the City will not be something
that isn't entitled, that is to a property owner. For instance,
say Mayfair didn't do anything to the street, but say I bought
five lots on the west side, or I bought some over from the
Japanese, then the City would have brought sewer to me, they
brought sewer to everybody else in town. They didn't tie in
because the cess pools were adequate, but when they ptug up then
they are obligated to go down to the City to pay their connect-
ion fee. And that is what I do. He's not standing the expense.
I will stand that under the $20,000.00 to move the Court. The
City is merely putting an extension of the transite line that
isn't in there now. That is the sewer. As far as the street
goes I am not speaking about that.not the Council should
keep in their mind that the City is/doing something for the
Mayfair or something for me that they wouldn't do for John
Smith or anybody else in another location. "E" Ave. has been
dedicated for 20 or more years, the street has been dedicated
but there hasn't been any houses in there, they didn't run
pipe line up there, it would be foolish to do so. But at times
they run transite to other locations. They put in transite
deep down to take care of properties that in the future might
be developed. That was costly too. Some places they went 20
feet deep to do that, and you say, well Why did they do that.
They did that looking to the future, and that is what we
are looking here, now the future has come and there is just a
short connection there, and I know your CityEngineer will give
you figures that will probably - you will think, well that is
ridiculous, we were thinking in terms of large money. It is
such a short line from the Catholic Church where the line is
now in "E" Ave. to the point that they are speaking about 300
feet deep south of 10th St. I think after the Engineer gives
you a report that won't be a major consideration. Thank you."
COUNCILMAN CARRIGAN: "You are right up to a point, Mr. Stowe.
The City has run many sewer lines where there were potential
connections and in most cases it was figured that the potential
connections would pay for the costof the main. The cost of
the sewer, as I have down here, was a short run. What I was
primarily concerned with was the cost of the street, that runs
into real money, as a rule."
ATTORNEY CAMPRRT,,L;' "For this particular record, Mr. Wilson, is
there any misunderstanding, or is it perfectly clear who is to
pay the connection fees?"
MR. WILSON: "No. No questions."
1/26
171
ATTORNEY CAMPBELL: "That either you, or Mr. Stowe."
MR. WILSON: "That is right."
ATTORNEY CAMPBELL: "You know there are two different fees, there
is the $75.00 fee and then there is the $170.00 fee. I was
wondering whether or not you had taken that into consideration."
MR. WILSON: "Perhaps I had better let Mr. Stowe answer that,
because Mr. Stowe actually assembled the figures upon which
this $21,000.00 total was arrived. He had in mind both the
connections there."
ATTORNEY CAMPBELL: "Then that presents to the Council this
question, that money has been expended for laying the sewers
and it has been determined then that the $170.00 average would
return all the money. Now, I believe the Engineer could submit
with his figures the amount of potential connections, and then
you can determine whether it would be feasible, and if only one
connection could go• on a $2,000.00 line, it is probably not
feasible, if ten can it's possibly advantageous, but that can
be determined when these figures are brought in."
MR.. WILSON: "Thank you."
MAYOR SARN: "Then the Engineer will bring in a cost estimate
on the improving of "E" Ave. and running that sewer line, at
the next meeting and we will go on that."
MR. WILSON: "And thenthe particular matter then with which
I want to come to grips right now then is after all of the
loose ends are brought up to a point where we can at least
see what we are talking about, is the extent to which the City
can, and will, commit the improvement of the extension of 10th
Street from the east line of our property to Palm Ave., and the
approximate time at which we can expect that that would be done,
in consideration for our taking over the construction of the
street and the acquisition and deeding to the City of the right
of way from Palm Ave. to "N" Ave., I mean from Highland Ave. to
"N" Ave."
ATTORNEY CAMPBELL: "I think that there is one problem that I
doubt whether the Council can answer at this time. For one
thing I don't know the amount of money that's in the gas tax
fund. I don't know the amount that it would take from the
east line of your property to Palm, and I doubt whether Mr.
Warwick could make a rough guess at this time. So then the
next thing, assuming that there was sufficient money and you
had an estimate of the cost, and they s newhat coincide, then
you would have to set up the program t; get it from the ,State.
Of course they can amend their contract, and their resolution
and agreement, but ordinarily it is set up year to year, be-
ginning next fiscal year. But those -are the problems you would
have to consider besides whether or not it would be possible
to do so in their minds."
MR. WILSON: "Let's clarify one matter of scheduling so that
you can understand the problems, and you can have something
concrete to think about. It is proposed, weather willing, and
if they turn off the rain long enough to dry the parking lot,
it is proposed that we will open the market a week from Thursday.
Also assuming some things that are not illogical to assume, we
should commence construction of the building for J. C. Penney
Company within a matter of a short time, maybe two weeks, three
weeks, Mr. Reid? Something like that. The completion of the
1/26
172
construction of the Penney Bldg. and of the other buildings
which will comprise the whole of South Bay Plaza will take up
to sometime, not sooner than the last of August, and it could
be up until the 5th of October, so that it isn't a matter
that requires the turning of spades and the cranking up of the
concrete mixer today or tomorrow; but we do need to have a
definite statement of policy with some commitment to do certain
things - maybe you can only name it only as to fiscal years,
I don't know, but the thing needs to be crystallized to a
point where we know where we stand on the thing, and while
this isn't a matter which requires construction in the outlay
of money now, but does require matter of decision as to policy
in the making of a commitment to which we can all of us be
reasonably bound so that we will know how to proceed."
COUNCILMAN CARRIGAN: "I got lost, I don't know what you said.
You want a commitment of what?"
MR. WILSON: "Will the City take the extension of the street
fro!r our east line to Palm, if so, within reason, when?"
MAYOR SARN`: "Mr. Wilson, the City Attorney can make an ex-
planation of that."
ATTORNEY CAMPBELL: "I am wondering if we are not running into
somewhat of a stone wall. I think that each of the Councilmen
can express their opinion, but I don't think they can enter
into an agreement at this time, for one thing there is no
estimate of cost, we know that it take8 State approval. Assuming
that we have sufficient money to do it, and the proposition
seems agreeable to all persons, they can't possibly bind them-
selves, and if we didn't have enough money and it took until
July 1st to do it they couldn't enter into a contract at this
time to do it next year, and I don't think there is any way
that this Council could bind the City to opening the street,
loth St. from the east line of your property to Palm, unless
they were able at this moment, if they had State approval and
the preliminary plans were in they could enter that, enter into
that contract right now, but just in timing, I don't see how
it is possible at all to do so within a matter of months."
MR. WILSON: "Mr. Campbell, can you do this, Mr. Forward is
here, would you in conjunction with Mr. Forward work out the
definition of policy on this matter so that we can have some-
thing as an indication where to go?"
ATTORNEY CAMPBELL: "I would only be too happy to attempt to
work out anything possible with Mr. Forward, and it is my
opinion at this moment that it would be policy. And I -think
that Mr. Forward would probably agree that this Council couldn't
enter into a contract at this time that would be binding upon
any future Council or upon the next fiscal year. Now if we
could get it underway in the next week, or two weeks, and had
sufficient money, of course they could do it."
MR. WILSON: "$ understand there are a lot of other problems and
I am not going to minimize that, that is one reason why I asked
Mr. Forward to be here this evening. There are a lot of
problems but we are never going to get them solved unless we
get them out and recognize them and kick them around and begin
to come to grips with them, and it would seem though now's the
time to come to grips and begin to set up some .kind of policy
and define in some way what can be done. Now, I might suggest
this: Is there anything in the 1911 Act which would help to
solve this thing? Would it be feasible?"
1/26
173
ATTORNEY CAMPBELL: "I don't know if it would be feasible. It
would be possible, you would be always subject to this con-
dition: that the property owners would not consent to it,
because it would be a taxation upon the property owners and
on that type of road I am afraid the expense is going to be
eigher so great that you have to have a large district, and
the people on a number of blocks would say: "what am I getting
ott of it?" I don't know, but it would be a strong probability
that it would be protested out. But to come back to yourr:yther
question, I will do anything I can to work with Mr. Forward
and with you to submit to the Council, or to work out whatever
they have in their mind as far as policy is concerned. But my
position too, I didn't want any possible misunderstandings
that if the Council says "we're in favor of it" in your mind
that they might be legally bound because I don't think that
they legally are. I don't think they can bind any future
Council, and I don't think they can bind even themselves for
next year. So with those points in mind, but anything I can
work out, or anything that Mr. Forward can suggest I will be
only too happy to do it."
MR. WILSON: "Thank you. As you see, it is a thing that, requires
that we get at it and not just pigeonhole it. I know that there
are implications involved that are legal and if they are acted
on we can possibly come up with something, not necessarily that
binds, but At least it would be a clear enough statement of
policy so we will have something to go on, and that will be in
the record for some future reference, even though it might not
be a hundred percent binding on the people who would be in-
volved at the time the work was undertaken."
ATTORNEY CAMPBELL: "I think there is no question but what we
could work that out."
MR. WILSON : "Fine."
MAYOR SARN: "Mr. Wilson, regarding the Council, I don;t believe
opening of loth Street from Highland to Palm, I don't believe
anyone would object to that if we can do it legally and get it
done."
COUNCILMAN MOESER: "Might I add to that, Mayor Sarn, I mean
just this little link would give some excess there, but of
course I think the contemplated thought for the future is
probably the development of this extension from Palm Ave. on
through probably till through 13th St. up through the canyon
where it will make another artery acceptable to, we might say,
Paradise Hills, Lincoln Acres, and the territory in there which
would be a benefit to all of National City, but just this little
link here, would of course just be a temporary entrance, and
of course again, that is a far reaching program, but certainly
this development would be beneficial to National City, but
again it is funds and time element that is to be considered."
MR. WILSON: "There are lots of problems. We don't solve them
unless we get at them. Another thing in connection with the
opening of 10th St., it will become advisable that there be
connections made on "L" Ave. and probably not on "M" because
there is a situation there at 8th and "M" that is pretty hard
to handle, as Mr. Warwick knows, and most of youAoo. But
certainly at "L" Ave. and perhaps by coming in on "N" and on
down gth St. and in on "M" that it would be possible to make
connections between 8th and the extension of loth. To the
extent that our property is involved, I think we would be
willing, in matter of fact, unless Mr. Reid objects, I think
you could assume that we would take the extension of "L" Ave.
1/26
174
and of "M" to our north line, and would like to have the Council,
think about what provisions should be made to complete the
connection then between "L" Ave. and 8th, I mean between loth
St. and 8th on "L" Ave., I think there is a distance there of
290 feet that would be necessary to connect "L" Ave. from loth
down to the north end of our property. I think that street
is already dedicated 60 feet wide, has never been improved, and
it would seem that it might be feasible to improve it, and I
would think that the abutting property owners would be very
happy to have it improved, and it is not unlikely that that
improvement might be undertaken under the 1911 Act, on "L",
M or "N". Perhaps Mr. Warwick might determine it most
feasible."
CITY ENGINEER WARWICK: "Mr. Wilson, in coming into something
which I have stated to various citizens of this town is the
policy of the City government in relation to the development
of streets, and I have been rather positive in my statements
towards them, when they come in with an unimproved street
such as the one you refer to that the City maintains streets
in the condition in which they receive them, therefore, if the
City goes in and developes streets such as "L" and "N" at
City expense it is going to make it extremely difficult for me
to tell somebody, say down at about 24th and "K" that we would
not improve those streets. You see the position that you are
putting me in, if the Cit. ioens't go along on it."
MR. WILSON: "Mr. Warwick, I haven't suggested that the City go
into the till to. improve those streets, it obviously would be
a problem created by our taking the improvement to the north
end of our property. That connecting link would present a
problem, now whether it is the City's problem to the extent
of putting out the money for it, I don't think so. But from
the standpoint of policy, whether it be undertaken by the 1911
Act assessment, or otherwise, it could be something thought
about and perhaps something done, certainlyrsome planning
undertaken.for those two streets."
CITY ENGINEER WARWICK: "Mr. Wilson, if you did improve your
two streets from what will be 10th St. to the easterly extens-
ion to the northerly line of your property, it would be quite
a help to me in using as a lever in coaxing the people to do
something about the rest of it."
MR4. WILSON: "i guess you said all that is necessary."
MAYOR SARN: "Mr. Wilson,, the tying up of "L" and "N" is not
an immediate problem right now, is it?"
MR. WILSON: "No, as I say, there are some of these things that
require definite and immediate action, and I think those have
been stated and outlined and I think measurably understood.
There are other things that certainly are not pressing tonight
but have to be considered in the future. I certainly appreciate
the opportunity to make this kind of a formal meeting and if
possible talk these things through and find out what the problems
are and get down to solving some of the things that are a re-
sponsibility to all of us, and as I say we have had no indicat-
ion other than that. National City and the South Bay area is
not only sympathetic but very enthisiastic about the develop-
ment that is to take place. After all we will end up spending
something in the neighborhood of $4,000,000.00 in National City
and will create in the town the kind of a commercial develop-
ment that should dominate all of the South Bay area, and it
will clean up a location that heretofore has been nothing but
a problem, and will make of it a very very attractive addition
1/26
175
to the City and a very great source of tax revenue. Obviously
the City wants it, but the problem has been just to get down
to cases and take care of the problems that have to be solved
as a result of formal Council action."
MAYOR SARN: "Is there anyone in the audience that wish to make
any statement in regard to any expressions of the Council
regarding the development of this? Will you please come up to
the "mike" and give your name and address; please."
VINCENT ACANFORA, 1502 E. 8th Street: "Approximately two years
ago I was up here protesting the flooding of 8th Street and
the City's negligence of doing anything about it. Mr. Carrigan
was Mayor at the time and I remember distinctly, and it is
probably on the records; that he said the City did not invite
us to build our homes on 8th St, as far as flood control was
concerned. It is to my interest to see that there is some
flood control at this time. I have no ob.4ections to the Mayfair,
but it brings to mind, who are we a +:tering to, big business or
the little guys here. How about us people, when we give voice
to somethings what heed do we have? You shun us off and let us
try to resolve our problems our own way. So it brings to mind
that we need something like the Mayfair to bring this thing to
a head and I am all for it becaus it certainly would be to
advantage to the taxpayers and residents along this area to
have some proper flood control, but we cannot have flood control
just in the immediate area and where the Mayfair now exists.
The flood control will have to go further up because the water
comes from further up; and if we are going to have a flood area
two blocks further up then there is no point in spending City
money or State money; tax money for improvement of flood
control. At the time I am talking about, two years ago, the
business houses at 18th and National, some of them were flooded,
there was quite a bit of water down there and I had to go
through some days. My car got quite wet, my breaks did too.
It is a problem for the City, not only of one particular area
but for along that whole stream area I would call it. It is a
dry creek that originates back in the canyon, runs at certain
times when we do have the water, it brings that water down, so
it is a problem for the whole City and not just the Mayfair."
MAYOR SARN: "I believe the Engineering Dept. and I believe the
City is working on that problem now planning out a complete
flood control program for the entire City. You can't do it
over night. Do you have something to say on that, Mr. Warwick?"
CITY ENGINEER WARWICK: "Yes, I would like to say something on
that. At a recent Council meeting I was questioned somewhat
on the drainage situation that was brought up here at 16th
and "A"'. At the time I made a statement to the Council that
my office had started some preliminary surveys for a potential
overall development of a drainage system throughout the City.
I believe it was Thursday of last week the Flood Control
Engineer for the County of Sah Diego was down here and he and
I toured the potential flood areas with the City and we picked
a figure out of our hats, you might say, to just start talking,
and it brings up the problem of when and where we can possibly
get the kind of money that it will take to do it. In develop-
ing the flood control problem; unfortunately the people at
8th St. are fairly well up stream and to make any sense out
of the project we will have to start somewhere down around
the Bay and start spending our money down there to get the
water away first. In other words any type of project like that
you must work up stream on it and not start at the top so the
water can get away at the top end of the thing in a hurry, and
then you get down to the bottom and make such conditions as
1/26
176
the gentleman mentioned at 18th and National far worse than
they are. It so happens that with the amount of water that
can come down through that area that we have to use somebody's
backyard for a retention area until we can get the —possibly
figures up in $2,000,000.00, that we can get to develop it.
There is at present proposed legislation to try to develop a
flood control district to include the entire County of San
Diego. It is a rather involved and lengthy thing which I
have read through and gotten some answers out of it. It's a
problem that is not going to be solved for a matter of years.
You are not being completely neglected on the thing, but there
is only.;so much we can do at any one time with the amount of
funds and the amount of personnel that the City can supply
from its income from the people's taxation. If we try to get
two or three million dollars out of you in a year I am afraid
it would be more than a few hollers from the people in this
City."
MR. STOWE: "Mr. Mayor, I would like to speak again. I would
like to see the Council, tonight, ask the City Attorney to
draw proper papers to get an easement from this man that was
mentioned that has this piece of property that needs a 200
foot ditch cut across his land, to get legally right now a
right of way so the City could divert the flood waters off
of 8th St. Eighth Street is maintained by our City tax money,
it costs a lot of money to repair streets when they are flood-
ed each winter, and I have seen it flooded every winter that
I have been here in National City for 23 years, and there is
no reason, and I don't believe the amount of water that comes
down that goes through this agriculture land in this particular
little canyon south of 8th St., the additional water that comes
down there will not endanger anybody's land, it does endanger.
this 8th St. property, it endangers the City's streets that we
have to maintain with our tax money from our property and the
City now has an opportunity to get an easement without charge,
according to Mr. Wilson's statement tonight, the Council should
take action now and get an easement, a legal paper from our
City Attorney, drawn, if it meets with the approval of course
of our Engineer that it is a feasible place to put this diverted
water, in other words divert the water into this other canyon
out of 8th St. I think that the Council should ask the City
Attorney, tonight, to draw up such a paper if the planning
Engineer sees it fit."
MAYOR SARN: "Mr. Stowe, well, I would recommend to the Council,
before they jump into the fire, diverting any flood waters,
they get the recommendation in writing from the Engineer."
CITY ENGINEER WARWICK: "Yes, Mr. Stowe, as I said when Mr.
Thomas and I visited the various areas around here I believe
we were looking at the particular saddle out there where it is
supposedly possible to divert the flood waters from the general
8th St. area to the next canyon to the south, to us looked
possible but before we ever did it we would have to go out and
run surveys over it. At the time we would absolutely have to
determine where we want that. In an easement you have to
give the necessary descriptions of the land you want, and you
cant just up and write them in and say "we want an easement
across your property", we have to very definitely state it and
show him exactly what we want because in the first place the
County Recorder will not record an easement that is indefinite.
We also come against the problem in diverting the water from
one drainage canal to another of possible liabilities in your
second channel. How much damage it would do in the area is
something we would also have to take into consideration. As
you say moat of it is agricultural lands and the damage would
1/26
177
possibly not be too great, but it is a problem of which we
would have to have an answer before we would ever go into
the thing. It is a possibility, and it has been expressed
by many people that it is a good idea. But for myself I would
like to have a defniite answer before we go any further on it."
MR. STOWE: "I would like to answer that. When the Gas &
Electric Co., the Telephone Co., or anybody else sees in the
future a need they will ask for an easement and obtain it.
Maybe 40 years from now they will use that easement. We can
get a metes and bounds description without much detail. The
metes and bounds description should be put in, in other words
we will have the easement when we want it, and not have the
property owner change their mind later on when they think that
something else comes up. Get your easement like the Telephone
Co., the Water Co., the Gas Co., they all get the easements,
maybe 40 years later they use it. Let's get the easement now,
quickly, and then do all the other stuff. Maybe we will never
divert the water, but we will have it when we want it to divert
it. It won't cost the City any money."
ATTORNEY CAMPBELL: "I think that was raised here sometime ago,
by you; Mr. Wilson. You remember, wasn't this part of the
discussion with Mr. Kerch? I think I asked you If he would
give us the easement even though we didn't have the rest of
the easements, without any agreement to complete it within any
particular length of time. I think there was an expression of
the Council at that time that if they can get it without any
commitment they would like to have it."
MR. WILSON: "I think that it would be well. I think many of
you know Charlie Kerch better than I do, and I think he would
be willing to be approached and speak for himself. He went
further in my discussion, I don't see any reason why he would
not be willing to be quoted in saying that the matter would be
of so much importance to him and to the property owners in his
neighborhood that he could and would approach many of them and
acquire from them whatever rights would be necessary for the
City to come down in that southerly -channel. He couldn't, of
course, commit himself beyond reason, but he was very cooperative
about helping in working out the right of way problem down in
that south channel. But there are many problems, and certainly
there is no intention on my part to attempt to -- there aren't
many things preci..it'us or beyond reason, ittts largely a matter
of getting things „At in the open and getting something in
motion now. In this particular instance, with no immediate
thought of being able to actually accomplish the whole object-
ive right off the bat. Incidentally, I would like to put in
this idea; I am sure that Mayfair Market is very flattered by
having reference made to South Bay Plaza as the Mayfair project.
As a matter of fact, Mayfair Market has no interest in Solith
Bay Plaza except as a tenant and the first tenant. The fee
ownership is in other folks who act as lessors to Mayfair Market,
and if you would go up there now and see the market you pro-
bably would think that is an awfully big building. As a matter
of fact it covers about three quarters of an acre of floor space,
it is 32,000 square feet, and when the whole project is finished
Mayfair Market will constitute less than 20% of the whole deal,
so as, I say, Mayfair is probably flattered to have it called
the Mayfair project. As a matter of fact it is South Bay Plaza."
COUNCILMAN PARCHEN: "Mr. Attorney, I would like to direct a
question to you. As I understand it this water that is supposed
to be diverted from 8th Street will eventually end up in a
culvert to be built under Highland Ave. Does that -- with the
increase in flow wider this Highland Ave., would that - now as
1/26
178
i understand it, the culvert is deemed to be adequate under
a 100 year rainfall, now would that change the CI» 's
liability?"
ATTORNEY CAMPBELL: "No, I think that you are not taking the
same drainage. You are taking the 8th St. drainage which is
then going south back of what we refer to as Mayfair Market
and being diverted into the same outlet, so it would have no
effect upon your Highland Ave. drainage."
COUNCILMAN PARTHEN: "It would go down faster, woult it not?"
ATTORNEY CAMPBELL: "Yes, it might accelerate it. The engineer-
ing survey has been that that culvert would take all the drain-
age that would come down."
MAYOR SARN: "Do any of the Council have anything to say, or
bring up, if not we will declare a ten minute recess."
MAYOR SARN called the meeting to order. Councilmen present:
Campbell, Carrigan, Moeser, Parchen, Sarn. Councilmen absent:
None.
MAYOR SARN: "Is there any further discussion on this South Bay
Plaza?"
MR. WILSON: "Mr. Mayor, is there any particular reason - I
would like to be excused."
MAYOR SARN: "Fine, I don't believe there is any further dis-
cussion. Thank you very much Mr. Wilson."
H. R. VINSON, 944 E. 9th Street: "In October or November of
last year we protested the filling in of the South Bay Plaza
to the City Council through the City Superintendent's Office.
There was nothing done then except to send a man out and say
we should do something about it. Now they went ahead and
filled in to where I am down in the hole up..there, four feet
deep. Yesterday my lot was flooded with about six inches of
water. Now how were they allowed to fill in without making
proper drainage there before they filled it in? Can Mr. Wilson
answer that?"
MR. WILSON: "The fill to the north end of our property line was
made with the very definite knowledge that we had positive
responsibility to the people who abutted to the north. At this
minute provisions adequate to handle this have not been made,
but they will be made and the means of doing that has been
discussed with the City Engineer and with our Engineer and will
be taken care of in a very satisfactory manner to everybody
before we get through. We are not attempting to duck any
responsibility and attempting in any way to get around it.
It is just that we haven't gotten to it yet."
MAYOR SARN: "All right, Mr. Wilson. So if there is no further
objection I would recommend to the Council that this portion
of the meeting be placed in the minutes verbatim."
COMMUNICATION FROM CITY MANAGER GAUTEREAUX.was read, recommend-
ing that the bid of the International Harvester Company, be
accepted.
RESOLUTION NO. 6114 was read, accepting the bid of the
International Harvester Company for the purchase of one 1954
truck. Moved by Carrigan, seconded by Campbell, that the
Resolution be adopted. Carried, all Councilmen present votin
gka
1/26
179
aye.
ATTORNEY CAMPBELL stated at the last meeting Mr. Gautereaux's
leave of absence as Park and Recreation Supt. was extended,
making a total not to exceed twelve months from the date his
leave of absence first started. He has filed his necessary
letter and a copy has been sent to the Civil Service Commission.
No action is necessary.
CITY MANAGER GAUTEREAUX stated that in order to complete the
Recreation Bldg. it will require an expenditure of about
$535.00. Also that in order to complete the shuffleboard courts
and building, and equipment pertinent to that particular
facility the total expense will be between $1350.00 and $1400.00.
This amount would come out of the recreational outlay as set-
up in the budget. Moved by Carrigan, seconded by Campbell, that
the recommendations of the City Manager be followed and the
expenditure allowed. Carried, all Councilmen present voting aye.
Moved by Moeser, seconded by Campbell; that the easement on
the Kerch property be accepted at this time for some future
use. Carried, all Councilmen present voting aye.
MAYOR SARN stated there have been some calls regarding the
pavement on "D" Avenue between 7th and 9th. It is in a bad
condition and he talked to the Engineer regarding this. As
yet we have not accepted the street so the contractor who
paved the street will be required to resurface it or bring it
up to specifications before the City will accept it.
Moved by Campbell, seconded by Parchen; that —Vie meeting be
closed. Carried, all Councilmen present voting aye.
MAYOR, CITY OF NATIONAL CITY, CALIFORNIA
/
f
ATTEST:
CITY CLCRK
1/26